December 28, 2022 would have been Stan Lee’s one hundredth birthday. In his honor, Roy Schwartz spoke with Danny Fingeroth, author of A Marvelous Life: The Amazing Story of Stan Lee, the first biography published after Lee’s death. Fingeroth is a comic book historian who was a writer and editor at Marvel from 1977 to 1995, where he oversaw the Spider-Man division.
Roy Schwartz: Stan Lee is probably the most famous man in comics, and one of the most influential writers of the twentieth century. He created the Fantastic Four, Hulk, Thor, Ant-Man, Iron Man, Avengers, X‑Men and Black Panther with Jack Kirby, Spider-Man and Doctor Strange with Steve Ditko, and Daredevil with Bill Everett, to name just the big ones. He was also Jewish, born Stanley Martin Lieber. Do you see any Jewish influences in his work?
Danny Fingeroth: Stan was a product of New York immigrant Jewish culture. He was born here, but his parents came as refugees from Romania. I think Stan was so steeped in secular Jewish culture, the way Lenny Bruce and Mel Brooks were, that he didn’t even realize it.
Jack Kirby [born Jacob Kurtzberg] came from a similar background, and I think the two of them brought it to the comics. It informed what people call “a New York sensibility,” which, for both better and worse, is usually code for a Jewish sensibility.
RS: Was Lee aware of that sensibility?
DF: I once asked Stan point blank, “You know, the Marvel books came out at the same time that Philip Roth, Woody Allen, Bernard Malamud, and Saul Bellow were having their heyday … any influence?” He denied it. But I find it hard to believe.
RS: People have pointed to various Jewish themes in his work. Did he put some of himself into any of these characters?
DF: Yes. Spider-Man spoke very much in Stan’s voice. I think a lot of the self-doubt expressed by Spider-Man reflected Lee’s own. I think Ben Grimm [the Thing] was part of him too — the wiseass Stan.
RS: Wasn’t the Thing based on Kirby? They had the same look and temperament, even the same name as Kirby and his father, Benjamin Jacob.
DF: Part of what makes those comics great is that Stan and Jack believed they were both Reed and Ben. They both saw themselves as having a serious, intellectual side, and they both also saw themselves as having a Borscht Belt comic side.
I think Stan was so steeped in secular Jewish culture, the way Lenny Bruce and Mel Brooks were, that he didn’t even realize it.
RS: Huh. So is Spider-Man Jewish?
DF: I think Spider-Man was always a hybrid. When he was with [artist Steve] Ditko, he was Jewish and Slavic. When he was with [John] Romita, he was Jewish and Italian.
RS: Any other Lee characters or stories that you see as Jewish?
DF: My favorite is the story of Thor being in love with Jane Foster. Thor wants to marry this mortal woman, who’s not an Asgardian. It’s an ongoing sublot, where for months and months, Thor pleads with his father Odin — who’s basically drawn like a bearded rabbi — to let him marry her, but he won’t because she’s not a goddess.
This is, to me, clearly a debate between the Old World immigrant Jewish father and the son who wants to marry a non-Jewish woman. The metaphor is so apparent. To me, that’s the most blatantly rabbinic discourse Lee and Kirby ever had in their comics. I don’t think people who aren’t Jewish would have written that story, or continued with that subplot for more than one issue. And it even made its way into the Thor: Love and Thunder movie.
RS: Lee wasn’t a practicing Jew, but were there any Jewish elements to his personality, publicly or privately?
DF: Depending on the audience, he would be more or less Jewish. But a lot of people compared him to an old-school, Borscht Belt comic. He was a Jewish comedian. That was his persona, especially as he got older.
Stan was a huge Mel Brooks fan. He and I would occasionally bond over his stuff, exchanging punchlines from his comedy routines from The 2000 Year Old Man.
He claimed to be an atheist, but he wrote an epic poem called “God Woke.” As a doctor of mine who’s a comics fan observed, somebody who has no interest in religion doesn’t write an epic poem called “God Woke.”
RS: What was the magic alchemy between Lee and Kirby in those years? Arguably, neither was as brilliant before or after.
DF: They brought out the best in each other, at least when it came to creating characters and stories that people loved. That doesn’t mean their relationship was necessarily fair or equitable, or that they even always liked each other.
RS: Which brings me to my next question. Lee was undeniably brilliant, but he did take, or at least allow others to give him, sole credit for characters and stories he created collaboratively. That debate can be found in great length and depth elsewhere, whether handled fairly or not — but do you have any thoughts?
DF: We can argue forever about who created what and in what percentages, but the fact is that the books that came out were a synthesis of these guys’ sensibilities. Stan and his creative collaborators, especially Kirby and Ditko, were essential to the creation of the Marvel Universe. Remove any of them, including publisher Martin Goodman, and there is no Marvel.
You have to remember: no one thought these characters would last for more than a few years. Goodman’s comics division had almost disappeared a couple of years earlier. Stan, at least, was grateful that it had survived at all.
He liked to work with people he trusted to get the work done but who would also follow his editorial direction. What that work required changed from story to story; everyone pitched in to get the comics out the door. That he was the co-plotter and scripter, as well as the editor and the artists’ boss, makes evaluating the way the books were produced sixty years ago virtually impossible. And, as successful as he was, he didn’t own those characters any more than you or I do. He made a nice living, but Marvel didn’t become the big success that it is now until after he’d given up the reins.
You have to remember: no one thought these characters would last for more than a few years. Goodman’s comics division had almost disappeared a couple of years earlier. Stan, at least, was grateful that it had survived at all.
RS: Much has been said about Lee’s talent and accomplishments as a writer. But as a comic book professional, what do you think about him as an editor, editor in chief, and publisher?
DF: He’s probably the best editor in the history of comics. As editor in chief (a title he never took, by the way) — meaning a person who supervised teams of editors in addition to editing his own comics — many people seemed to like working for and with him and found him inspiring and caring. I’m sure not everyone loved him or loved working for him, but overall, he seemed to bring out the best in a lot of people.
As publisher, he was quite innovative, branching out into genres and publication formats that Goodman hadn’t wanted to. Of course, comics were in crisis when Stan became publisher [in 1972], so, in a way, he had no choice. I think he was bored with the minutiae of this role, but the title did give him more clout in the industry.
I think it was all just part of his plan to get the hell out of comics, which in many ways he’d wanted to do since the late fifties. In 1980, when he had the chance to move to Hollywood, while still drawing a Marvel salary, he took it. I think he would have loved to achieve huge success in movies or TV ventures outside Marvel, but that never happened like he’d hoped.
RS: How did you like him as a boss?
DF: Actually, I never worked for Stan. I worked with him as a colleague or as his editor [when he wrote]. Of course, on a Marvel organizational chart he outranked me, and almost everybody, though he never pulled rank.
He did have a side that could be gruff and impatient, and he was capable of making cutting, sarcastic remarks à la Don Rickles. But he got over his anger quickly, rarely held grudges, and apologized if he realized he’d hurt someone’s feelings. And even people who didn’t like his style usually understood that his criticisms and suggestions improved the comics.
RS: Any good Stan anecdotes?
DF: My favorite is a story that Stan Goldberg [the colorist who designed the color scheme for most of the main Marvel characters and an artist on Millie the Model] liked to tell. He and Stan used to go out on walks together during their lunch hour. One day, Stan had on a new suit that he was very proud of — which of course was when a pigeon pooped on him. As the pigeon flew away, Stan waved his fist at it and shouted, “For the gentiles, you sing!”
Roy Schwartz writes about pop culture for The Forward and CNN.com. His work has appeared in New York Daily News, Philosophy Now, and IGN, among others. He has taught at CUNY and is a former writer-in-residence fellow at the New York Public Library. His latest book is the Diagram Prize-winning Is Superman Circumcised? The Complete Jewish History of the World’s Greatest Hero.